The Dark Alliance

Open Area => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joric on 21 March, 2020, 08:21:28 pm

Title: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 21 March, 2020, 08:21:28 pm
I like bread and try to get better at making decent loafes. This is from today.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Fizzlefry on 21 March, 2020, 10:17:34 pm
recipe? Looks really good Joric. Do you use a dutch oven?
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Mambopoa on 22 March, 2020, 09:05:59 am
Looking good Jor :D

Good texture and colour.
Perhaps a little over the top with the seeds. ;)
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Joric on 22 March, 2020, 11:23:44 am
recipe? Looks really good Joric. Do you use a dutch oven?

Hey mate,
no dutch oven was used. I try to simplify as much as possible and try to get away from the heat as I am clumsy and don't want to burn myself. Instead I used a pizzastone and shovel.

Recipe, ummm... I have to translate that. Trying deepl with some manual adjustments. If you got questions- let me know!

INGREDIENTS for 2 loaves of bread
- 600g water, room temperature
- 25g salt
- approx. 0,5g dry yeast
- 100g rye sourdough 100% hydration
- 100g spelt wholegrain
- 100g wheat wholegrain
- 800g wheat type 550 (thats between pastry (450) and bread flour (812))
- Seeds > Go crazy;)

Making the dough
- Mix water, salt, yeast and sourdough (is a personal thing, I don't like the rye lumps)
- add both wholegrain flours, mix well
- Add wheat flour, mix well
- approx. 10min by hand kneading. I tried it with Slap&Fold, but the dough is a bit firm. So no matter how - knead well.
- Let it rest for 1h at room temperature, 1x stretch and fold, then put it in the fridge

Proofing
- 2-4 days in the fridge - the bread on the photo was Proofing 57 hours
- Stretch and fold properly 2-3 times a day. 2x is enough, e.g. in the morning and in the evening

BACKING - 2 small loaves of bread each approx. 830g
- Knead the dough properly and remove Gas, but do not overdo it
- Divide the dough for 2 loaves of bread with a different mixture of seeds
- shape round, cover, let relax for 10-15min
- Shape the dough according to the fermenting basket And Build Tension
- roll in the desired seeds, then place in the fermentation basket. The side with the fewest grains upwards
- Cover the fermenting basket ("shower cap") and leave to rise for approx. 4 hours.
- Preheat the oven to 275C, lower shelf with bread baking / pizza stone, place water container in the oven for More humidity
- Put the bread onto the floured pizza shovel, cut it and put it in the oven
- Turn oven immediately to 225C bottom heat, bake for 15 minutes
- Let off steam, remove water container, turn bread once
- bake for 15 minutes at 230C top and bottom heat
- watch crust color- don't let it get burned
- remember: Bread core temperature has to exceed 93C - in you got a thermometer- check it!
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Joric on 22 March, 2020, 11:27:41 am
Looking good Jor :D

Good texture and colour.
Perhaps a little over the top with the seeds. ;)

Hehe, my daughter requested bread "with taste" and with seeds. So I am experimenting...
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Mambopoa on 22 March, 2020, 01:10:56 pm
INGREDIENTS for 2 loaves of bread
- 600g water, room temperature
- 25g salt
- approx. 0,5g dry yeast
- 100g rye sourdough 100% hydration
- 100g spelt wholegrain
- 100g wheat wholegrain
- 800g wheat type 550 (thats between pastry (450) and bread flour (812))
- Seeds > Go crazy;)

I was going to say that was a lot of flour (read the rest first) But my go to on 1 loaf white bread is: (Stolen and changed)
500g Strong Flour
10g Salt
7g Yeast
300 Water (may need to add a little more, depends on flour and feel)
50ml Olive Oil (adds a nice back flavour)

Proofing
- 2-4 days in the fridge - the bread on the photo was Proofing 57 hours
I usual go for the 2 hour proves (depending), usually tripled at room temp. Then double again after knock back.
I won my competition by proving over 24 hours, to give a good bread flavour.

- remember: Bread core temperature has to exceed 93C - in you got a thermometer- check it!
I just go on timing, colour and the knocking sound. I have never done the temp thing with bread.
But I should try it next time. See what temp it is in the middle.

I have started to play around with sour dough and a starter, but not having much luck in a good loaf.
Either too dense or too big bubbles.

This should be Jors Bread Thread ;)



Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Joric on 22 March, 2020, 01:36:22 pm
Hey, your receipe is basically Pizza just with different flour. Its the most basic bread receipe you can think of with only 4 ingredients:
- 500g "Tipo 00" Pizza flour (there are 2 different kinds, e.g. from Caputo - one for short, the other for long fermentation)
- 300g Water, cold. This gives 300/500=60% hydration, which is considered the "everybody can do this" sweet spot. No offense meant. Pizza is a very basic and simple dish everybody could make and afford.
- 15g Salt
- 2,5g yeast
Proofing would be overnight in that case. This is, what they do in a good Pizzeria in Napoli. No olive oil in the dough! Pizza is baked at around 400C for 60-90s.

So as you are experienced with this kind of dough and hydration - get some Tipo00 flour and try to make some proper Pizza!  :)

Oh, and I changed the thread title- just for the fun of it.
Title: Re: Bread
Post by: Joric on 22 March, 2020, 01:40:06 pm
As for the crumb quality: try a much longer last proofing period. This is, what I am doing atm and its amazing how far you can push this.

>
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 22 March, 2020, 04:13:05 pm
Regarding Pizza Napoletana: the official regulations are here: https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana

As for the Salt: some say, the rule of thumb is: if the water tastes like sea water, its enough. When you cook pasta, same story. And yes - I saw chefs taste the water before putting spaghetti into it, when I was there.

On the other hand, this is a lot of salt. I can only imagine, that this will work with a lot of yeast and for short proofing periods.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 23 March, 2020, 03:04:35 pm
Pizza dough, is 800g 00 flour, with 200g semolina flour.
Then 14g of yeast. (our packs of dried yeast are 7g each)
10g Salt
10g Sugar
640ml Water

Gives me about 8 pizza base for the oven. :)

The bread came from a standard white bloomer recipe and it has stood well with me since then.
It fills my 2kg loaf tin and gives a good size of bloomer if needed.

But in the pizza oven, you can also do pitta breads, that works really well. :)
The one I struggled with last was naan breads, just can not seem to get them right.
Oh and don't forget flat breads, great to cook on the BBQ grill :D

I know the salt for the pasta, but I think that would be too much in bread.

But I go off track.
The trick with the sour dough seems to be when you last feed it and when you are about to use it.
I need to try more, but even though it looks wrong, it does have a good taste :)

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 23 March, 2020, 08:43:25 pm
You can use the sourdough whenever it passes the swim test, which is a bit before, exactly at or a bit after max rise. At that time mix your dough and knead or Stretch&Fold etc.  :)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 28 March, 2020, 06:26:35 pm
My first try at pumpkin seed bread. Turned out a tad flat, but the crumb is very nice.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 11 April, 2020, 06:11:49 pm
Jor,

In this new lock down world, I have a few people at work asking me about sourdough and starters.
(Subject to being able to get strong flour) ;)

So I am asking a few for what is good to do and what is bad.

For me:
Starters. First one I did, I added grapes to help get that natural yeast going.
It did not smell right and pretty odd look, did not like the idea at all and started again with just flour and water.

Friend added some bakers yeast to get it started. But says his looks a little grey.


Making the dough.

I keep mine in the fridge, so took half out, warm room, added 150g flour and 150ml water.
Left to warm up a bit and it started to bubble. Then add this to the loaf mix.
So far the dough was very slack. Some big bubbles, but going to be a low loaf.
Threw it in the oven and will see.

Friend said he started to cook in normal loaf tin. Gets good tasking bread and easy to put in the toaster.
So I will try that another time.


That is the main ones I can think of. I will try and add to this post when I think of more.

Thanks ;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 12 April, 2020, 05:25:13 pm
Hey mate,
this website has some nice articles on bread.

Making a bread

https://www.butterforall.com/traditional-cooking-traditional-living/how-to-bake-the-perfect-sourdough-boule-in-your-dutch-oven/

Starter

https://www.butterforall.com/traditional-cooking-traditional-living/demystifying-sourdough-everything-youve-ever-wanted-to-know-about-sourdough-starter/

My personal experience:
Many people make big fuss about yeast and sourdough and try to sell you "the method". You can follow their advices, but this will lead to a very stressful life, keeping exact times and temperatures. Our ancestors made bread without all the tools and gadgets. My advise: rely on on a scale, a thermometer and your nose.

- you need less starter than you think
- start with wholegrain flour, rye works best for me, but you can go with wheat, too
- work in a schedule. Doing stuff in the evening works best for me.
- always work very clean. You don't want anything else but your sourdough starter in the glass. This is important.
- always use boiled water at room temperature. Just boil water in the morning and let it sit in the kettle until evening. This gets you rid of every "additional" stuff in the water.
- starter: 30g flour + 30g water + some booster is all you need
- booster: squeeze some grapes, maybe 5-10 depending on size. you know the dark ones, that look a bit floured? These are good. Don't wash. Just pour the juice into the mixture. Worked well on wheat starter. Apple for rye. Shred it very fine, especially stuff from the skin. 5-10g is enough.
- No feeding in the first 2 days. Stir 2-4x a day, work very clean!
- yeast grows best around 27C. Try to keep the temp AROUND that value. Don't go over 30, down to 20 in the night is fine.
- Starting from day 3 you start 1:1:1 feeding - e.g. 20g starter (discard rest) + 20g flour + 20g water. Mix and let it rest until next day. Stir once a day - e.g in the morning. Work clean.
- You want activity. The starter will start to rise and double or even triple in size. Wait at least until day 5 and stay with the schedule.
- Up from day 6 and if your starter at least doubles: If you want, you can now start to power-level your starter. Let it rise to the max and start a new feeding sequence. Keep starter around 27C. And again. And again.... This is called the "yeast-schedule" and strengthens the yeast cultures.
- After like 10 days you should have a stable starter ready for baking.
- You can now feed it and let rise a bit - but not to max. Then put in fridge.
- The smell. To me this is very important. Acetate - good. Your starter is hungry and temp was low-ish. Sweet/flower/parfume/cidre/mild alcohol - wonderful. Starter is well fed and temp was a tad below yeast optimum. This is, what I aim for. Flour/almost nothing - yeast optimum, maybe a tad too warm. Yoghurt/"milk-sour" (sorry, don't know, how to describe it) - watch out. Your starter is bored and temp is too high.
- So what do you do? Starter hungry --> feed it. Bored: challenge your starter. Feed  1:5:5 or 1:10:10 - e.g. 5g starter + 25g flour + 25g water.
- after feeding, smell again. It should smell sweet/flowery or you just smell the flour.
- as long as your starter doesn't change color to red, green or anything strange and no mold appears, you are ok.

Personally I wouldn't use bakers yeast to make a starter. You'll end up with a classic pre-dough, poolish, biga. Thats not bad at all, but it's not sourdough ;)

Baking with sourdough is different from baking with yeast. Sourdough is sour. pH-value around 4.5 while a pure yeast environment is around 6. This changes the biochemical processes and you should read and watch videos on sourdough bread. We can also chat about it if you want ;)

I prefer using yeast and sourdough to get the best of both worlds. I also made my own yeast-water because you cant buy yeast in Germany at the moment. It works better than bakers yeast for me as it harmonises better with the sourdough.

That's it for a start, hope it helps. Gimme a yell if you wanna talk.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 12 April, 2020, 05:42:08 pm
Bread from this friday. And my next sourdough experiment. 6 days old starter.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 12 April, 2020, 09:38:01 pm
Thank Jor,

I am going to cut this down to the interesting points :)
You used Rye flour, I have read this too, or whole wheat. Seems you got a good starter from it.
Never heard the boiled water cooled, i just go straight from the tap. And leave it to warm up to room temp.
I tend to use 100g/ml of water to feed. Interesting you only use 30g/ml
My starter worked fine in a room at about 15c all the time when I started it. Interesting you say 27c for better results.

I did not know about the different PH value. An interesting point to remember.

Thanks again. :)


Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 12 April, 2020, 11:27:04 pm
Todays loaf was not good.

(http://www.haitch.com/sourdough.jpg)

But this is part of the practice and getting used to things.
Next time less water for a tougher dough and a bit more proving time.

But it was the best tasting sourdough I have done. :D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 12 April, 2020, 11:30:05 pm
Well, *hrmpf*, the yeast and bacterias are in the flour, especially in the outer areas of the grain. Thats why you usually want to use whole grain flour. There's an article on sourdough on the wikipedia website, that explains things in more detail. Read it.

You can use pastry flour to create a starter, if you want to. LM (Lievito Madre) is made from this kind of flour, and it's very popular in Italy. It gained more popularity in other countries over the last years.

Certain kinds of yeast and bacterias grow better at certain temperatures and you use that to "buff" the ones you want to get (group C Obligately heterofermentative bacterias). Sourdough growth and development works from around 5C to about 35C. But you favour different bacterias which also impacts the yeast development.

As I said in my previous post - our ancestors used experiments and experience rather than knowledge to bake bread. I am sure, that you are not the first one to create a starter at 15C. ;p It'll work.

A starter and the actual sourdough you bake with CAN be two different things. If you bake every day, you make enough sourdough for your dough plus a bit extra. You use that leftover to start the next sourdough for the next day, as you want to keep the sourdough active and at its peak. So if you bake lets say once a week - you put a very small amount of sourdough in the fridge, BEFORE it reaches peak. A few grams are enough. The day before mixing the dough you use something from this starter with flour and water and let it rise to near max. We are talking about 6-18 hours on average. Then with the sourdough near peak you mix the dough. Search for "float test". If it floats it is ready to mix. So you can do it both ways, but I only need the starter once or twice a week and with around 70g in the jar I can start a lot of sourdough if I use 5-10g starter ;)

Good luck and keep us updated!

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 12 April, 2020, 11:32:03 pm
Oh and I really suggest you make your own yeast water. It goes very well with sourdough. Well, at least for me.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 12 April, 2020, 11:34:20 pm
Today I refreshed my yeast water, 2 rye starters and a wheat starter.

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 12 April, 2020, 11:39:29 pm
The yeast water does sound interesting. I will go back to that at some point.

Those sort of tips really help. :)
I have a couple of others doing this sort of tips, will post any extra they post.

The sourdough is a challenge for me, rather than a need.
I am very happy with the usual loaf I make. :)

Just a quick point on the flour, I am using strong flour, this has the higher gluten, not the usual pastry flour.
(Just in case this got missed somewhere)

And yes I am doing the try, test and see method.
I am not reading up anything on it, as I just wanted to see how I got on with it.
Why making lists of what worked and did not work is useful.

Would show you the BBQ ones, but that is a trade secret ;)

;D

PS - Stop posting while I am still writing a post  ;)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 12 April, 2020, 11:44:04 pm
For the next time, how did you make your yeast water and when do you use it?

Not really followed with that bit.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 13 April, 2020, 09:32:38 am
Good morning!
The US/GB flour labels are very confusing for me, but afaik pastry and strong flour are two completely different categories. Pastry refers to what part of the grain is used - only the middle/core. Strong is/might be an indicator for gluten, although I think it's more related to the amount of protein. The more of the grains outer parts you mill, the more protein you can expect in the flour, as it's concentrated there. But protein and gluten values depend on many parameters like soil, weather, etc. - so "bread flour" this year might bake differently from "bread flour" next year or bread flour from another country/region.

3rd category: There is the term "dough stability" (german: Teigstabilitt, the "W-number"), which is used to describe exactly that and it is related to gluten, but not exclusively. 170W --> cookies, waffles, sauces. 180-260W --> baguette, rolls, pizza. 280-350W --> bread.

I like to experiment, too. But then I also want to know, why stuff happens. The goal: make things easy and less stressful. Example: The same recipe will yield a different bread in winter and in summer if you do exactly the same with the same ingredients. So now you can experiment more and develop summer and winter bread recipes. I would ask: why? Answer: Roughly every 5 degrees bio-chemical processes double speed if it gets warmer or half it when it gets colder. So when my kitchen has 22C and my fridge 7C and I prove the same bread in the kitchen for 5 hours... how long do I have to prove in the fridge? 22=7+3*5. So 2^3=8 times. 5*8=40. So it might not be the exact value, but 40 hours get me in the right ballpark. Kitchen at 25C and fridge at 5C --> 80 hours. Quite the difference, huh?

Yeast water: you basically try to make wine. 500g purified/clean water (I cook it and cool it down) at 40C, (dried) fruits, shake, let sit for a few days and shake a little now and then. Don't close the jar/bottle completely as it might explode because of the gas. You can add a little sugar to feed the mixture.

Video:

Good luck!
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 13 April, 2020, 10:52:01 am
So what do you find useful or different about using the yeast water?

What differences do you see and do you feel it is worth using?

And morning. :)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 13 April, 2020, 01:45:25 pm
Good question.

Mostly I use very small amounts of yeast, like 0,2-0,5g. This is hard to measure and small differences make a huge difference on the long run. With yeast water I just mix 1:1 with flour and let it rest/rise. So it's easier to measure.

It's a more delicate/dainty yeast compared to the usual I-oneshot-everything yeast beast you buy in the store - if that makes any sense to you.

Smells different, more pleasing. Fruity, alcoholic, slightly rum flavoring.

It changes the color of the dough. In my case slightly pink-ish. Funny to see.

It works well together with my sourdough. They seem to be a good team. This sounds strange and maybe it's not even true. Maybe I am just getting better in mixing and handling dough. What I see atm with the yeast water: the dough feels nice, doesn't fall apart even after longer proofing, crumb looks good. Crust becomes leathery/rubbery after a while - this is the next thing I am working on.

It is self-made and it is very satisfactory, as I try to reduce my bread-making to the absolutely necessary things and to get things done without having to buy some magic ingredients. So this is just water and some fruits and you can bake with it. Mind-blowing.

You can use yeast water to make a LM starter in just a few days. This alone is the reason for many people to make yeast water. The traditional LM starter needs around 25 days and a lot of special care.

For now I'll go with it. I can't buy yeast in stores anyway, so it is my only source of yeast.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 13 April, 2020, 03:19:30 pm
Same dough. 5 days of proofing, mostly in the fridge. Ultra strong flavour. My tongue can't even talk in sentences, it's more like: "Bread. Mhhhmm - bread. BREAD!! Brrrrreeeaaaadd! Wow, Bread!".
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 13 April, 2020, 04:28:51 pm
Would you say best yet?

I have made other breads using whole grain flour, even though it was a good brown loaf, I still prefer the white.

Have you tried the dutch oven type cook?
I can see this helping with stopping the mixture spread too much. Also more heat on the bottom of the loaf.
I will have to dig out the cast iron stuff and have a go next time.

Well for me, most of this is on stall, as I can not get the flour anyway. I do have yeast left.
I need to get back to making baguettes again.
But with the lack of flour in the shops, it will also have to wait.

With the lockdown, all I can assume that families are baking a lot with the kids to keep them busy.
Will this cause a demise of the bread industry and people go back to home baked a lot again.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 13 April, 2020, 08:21:40 pm
Best? No. It's over-proofed and the crumb begins to fall apart. I will keep this recipe and proof 2-3 days.

Yes, I tried dutch oven (DO). My problem: I am very sensitive to heat and a 250C DO is no fun for me. Using the deep, lower part of a roasting pan as a lid/cover and baking on a baking plate is better in that aspect, but the best method so far for me is using a pizza stone and a pizza shovel. Put bread on shovel, score the bread, open oven, slide bread onto the stone, close oven. Takes like 3 seconds :D --> winner.

Also a pizza stone drains moist from the bread bottom --> better crust.

If your dough handling is right, a normal bread needs no further support. No offense meant, really. With the gluten structure and the tension you build by forming the loaf and then proofing in a basket it keeps in shape, trust me.

The higher the hydration, the lower the gluten, the more rye --> the higher the need for "dough support", though. I managed to bake bread up to 80% hydration, but atm I settled for 65%, maybe a tad more. It's way more relaxed and produces stable results.

Yes, flour is on high demand here, too. I buy, what I can get - but then I only use like 1-1,5kg a week, so that's not that much.

/wave
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 22 April, 2020, 10:45:21 am
Finally had an update from a friend at work and his sourdough notes.

First couple of attempts were pretty dodge, I made the starter in the cheats way (as advised by the internet) so added tsp of bread yeast to 100g of flour and 150ml water fed a couple of times and was ready to go within 3 or 4 days.

First loaf was way too slack, I think I used too much water so although the taste was good it was very flat.
That is the only Boule that I have made as since then I have made loaves in tins, 2nd loaf again was quite slack dough wise but in the tin it held shape and had great structure.
The last couple I have made have had much less water and been much better but less bubbly structure.

So current recipe:
150ml starter add 50g Strong Wholemeal flour and 150 ml water (to make a total of approx. 350ml of batter
450g flour (I use 250g Strong wholemeal and 200g Spelt)
Bit of salt   
Extra 50ml water if required

Sift flour, add salt, mix in starter batter to make dough, add extra water, turn out onto lightly floured board and knead a little to get everything mixed in roll into a ball, back into the bowl under clingfilm and leave for 6 hours or so until double in size ish.
Knock back, have a little knead, grease loaf tin add coarse maize flour to base pop dough in leave for a couple of hours till dough is inch to an inch above pan sides (or until it looks loafy).
Heat oven to 200c add roasting tin full of boiling water to bottom of oven, once heated add loaf just above pan of water, give it about 45mins till brown.
 
I have used all sorts in the starter, rye, spelt and bread flour, I feed 2 table spoons flour and 100ml water each day (Im not sure its quite enough flour) although today I have done 3 tblsp and 100 ml and popped it in the fridge as I am making a loaf today and dont expect to make sourdough till next week now.
I shall make a normal loaf at the weekend. My normal loaves are awesome ;)

******
So that is Rob's stuff, I think I need to ask him for photos to prove the are awesome ;)


Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 23 April, 2020, 08:32:32 am
Thanks for the update! Well, starting with yeast and adding flour and water gets you pre-ferment aka mother dough, depending on how much water you use poolish (around 100% hydration) or biga (around 50% hydration). You can even build lievito di madre from yeast water that way.

THIS IS NOT A SOURDOUGH, THOUGH. Sorry to repeat myself on that. It's nothing wrong with doing it that way and you can get nice results. I like working with pre-ferment and do it all the time - its great. But it's not sourdough.

Your friend ended up with a hydration of 43% or 52% (with added water). That's pretty dry. Remember --> "pizza / everyone can do it" hydration is 60%. Maybe it's the flour he used and it ended up perfectly. If I would do it that way, it would be a very dry dough.

As for starting sourdough. First feedings are 1:1 and 1:1:1. I don't know, where he got his information, but 2 table spoons flour + 100g water just doesn't sound right. Just saying. Save flour... start with like 30g flour + 30g water/booster and feed 1:1:1 up from day 2 and 1:5:5 later.

My experiments with sourdough-only breads ended up so-so. Nothing to be proud of. Its way more complicated than baking with yeast or yeast water.

/wave
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 24 April, 2020, 07:22:14 pm
Oh, and if you just need the sour environment - you can use vinegar, sour milk or yoghurt ;) No sourdough needed.

So let's say you want to use rye flour in your dough - just add some vinegar when mixing. I would start to experiment with 20g 5% vinegar for 500g flour. Up to 25% rye can be used that way, so in this case you could go max. 375g wheat + 125g rye flour. I did this and it worked find. No experience with sour milk and yoghurt as I tried to make vegan bread.

Even pure wheat breat profits from a little acid - even lemon juice or orange juice works. The dough should feel a tad more elastic/rubber-like when kneading and folding.

IF you got spare sourdough - even when baking with yeast only - throw in a small amount (1-2 tee spoons) of active sourdough (starter) as it adds some acid and some flavour.

Happy baking!
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 25 April, 2020, 02:17:32 pm
Fresh from the oven. Wheat&Spelt bread with sourdough and yeast water. 60h proofing.

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 26 April, 2020, 01:17:40 am
Looking good Jor :D

I have some starter being fed today, going to see if it works tomorrow.
If it goes OK will post photos.

Did some Pizza today, was really nice, just did a third of the recipe and works well.
Will try and post that soon too.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 26 April, 2020, 12:20:39 pm
Ah, Pizza. I am not good at that. Read about it, sounds easy, but isn't. Dough came out fine (from the feel/look), but I didn't manage to produce a nice round and thin pizza shape and get the pizza into the oven, undamaged.

Comes down to practise i guess...
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 29 April, 2020, 07:50:48 pm
Forgot to post earlier:

(http://www.haitch.com/20200425_175931.jpg)

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 30 April, 2020, 01:04:43 am
Houston, we have a problem. :D
Loaded up too jars, same starter, but different flours.
If they get to the weekend, I will try and bake them.

(http://www.haitch.com/20200429_183215.jpg)

Ooops,

But it does show they are active. ;)

I use these cheap jars, as they have a hard plastic seal.
Enough to keep liquid in etc, but not good enough under pressure.
The ones I have with the soft rubber seal I use for sauces etc.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 01 May, 2020, 07:29:56 am
The pizza looks good! It's rather heavy loaded by italian standards. Did the dough held in the middle? Or was it soaked up badly? Good to know: napoli-style pizza is not crusty and "stiff/hard" in the middle, but very thin.

Younger sourdough is kinda unpredictable, even if you use the same water and flour. In the first few weeks you can get everything from heavy explosions - I am talking 5x volume and more in a short time - to "playing dead" for many days. Keep feeding it on a regular base and it will get more and more predictable.

Adding more variable parameters like different kind of flour makes things even more complex and unpredictable. Rule of thumb: don't close the lid completely within the first 2 months. In the first few weeks just put it on the jar, later close it just a tiny bit to allow easy pressure compensation. I started my first rye sourdough in January and I close the lid about 60-70% now and I am quite confident, that things will go well.

Good luck with the baking!

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 01 May, 2020, 08:55:43 am
Pizza was good throughout, I had it a little thicker than I normally would, as I wanted to use all the dough and rolled it out to the right size for the oven. ;)

It was all my fault for simply filling up the pots too much, these are some of my old starter I have split off last weekend. 

As you read by the labels, this is my was of experimenting every so often and watching what happens.
As flour is still not always in the shops, I got some whole wheat and that is what I am looking at here.
The results so far, whole wheat has slightly more bubbles, but slightly smaller.

Will see if I get around to baking with them or not, since I will have to split more off at the weekend for the main starter in the fridge or I just make a normal loaf with the flour.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 02 May, 2020, 10:33:32 am
My daughter wanted pizza. Veggie pizza  ::) I made the dough and stole some of her stuff to put on my pizza along with some salami and ham. This is the result. Way too thick, I have to practise on that. Giving it an oval shape I could bake 2 pieces at once. Worked well.

Then I swapped my pre-dough (poolish) for wheat sourdough and made some dough yesterday. It was a complete mess. Too wet, very sticky, no structure. I gave up working on it and put it in the fridge in the afternoon. 5C. Guess, what I saw this morning. Doubled in size... I formed two loafs - somehow - and put them in proofing baskets - somehow. One is in the fridge, one rests on the kitchen counter. I'll try to bake it, when it's ready. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 03 May, 2020, 01:03:45 am
Pizza still looks nice, well could do with some meat on them, as I know you agree. ;)

Pizza dough is one of those odd things, where you need them thinner than you think you need it.
A think crust is so thin, you think you have stretched it too far.

But I would be very happy to get one of those, say it is Chicago style, they are thicker ;)

I look forward to see how these loaves turn out.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 03 May, 2020, 08:14:14 am
Good morning.
Baking was a disaster. First try --> pita. Then I put the 2nd loaf in a cake-tin and this one came out ok... but since I wanted bread and not a cake --> big fail. Oh well.

Read a lot about it and I believe I am on the right track now. I worked with rye and rye sourdough so far and wheat sourdough seems to be a very different beast. Where you can use lots of sourdough in a rye bread you can't / shouldn't in a wheat bread. Well... at least with the flour I use. American "strong" flour has more gluten afaik and maybe things work in another way just because of that.

I will now experiment with different percentages of sourdough in the dough to get a feeling for it. I'll keep you updated!

What about your sourdough? Did you bake with it?

/wave
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 03 May, 2020, 10:21:07 am
I am interested to know, what was the recipe you used when you say too much sourdough.
I have not posted before. But the one I follow is:

300g starter
500g flour
250ml water
10g Salt
10g Sugar

Mix flour, starter,, sugar and salt. (I tend to use mixer with dough hook for ease, then hand knead at the end to get a feel what it is like)
The add small amounts of water until it looks right. The one I made the other week I feel had too much water.
One today, I think I used about 200ml water.

It has risen well and seem firm, I will leave it a bit longer then bake it and see.
Will update too.
;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 03 May, 2020, 11:27:57 am
254g rye sourdough
314g wheat sourdough
354g water
330g wheat flour (german type 550)
330g spelt flour (german type 812)
22g salt

1st test today worked better. Recipe:
75g wheat sourdough
150g wheat flour
90g water
5g salt

The dough had a completely different feel and oven spring was nice. Maybe mixing rye and wheat sourdough is a problem, too? I will find out ;)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 03 May, 2020, 01:31:45 pm
Todays bread.
Nice taste, good and firm so I can spread butter. Worked well.

(http://www.haitch.com/20200503_120938.jpg)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 03 May, 2020, 05:17:50 pm
Cool - well done! Next experiment:
117g poolish wheat + yeast water
184g sourdough wheat
600g wheat flour with some spelt leftovers
340g water (I used yeast water instead)
18g salt

Dough looks and feels ok, I'll give it some more folds and then put it into the fridge.

The other 3 images are from my 1st test (see last post).
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 04 May, 2020, 12:48:39 am
I get the feeling you are using too much water... but I will leave you to the testing and see the results.

Just want to make sure on the photos.....

The fresh dough looks good, can you get the window effect? (where you can stretch so thin you can almost see through)

So is the other 3 the pita you were talking about? as the shape looks right but too much dough.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 04 May, 2020, 07:10:04 am
Good morning, window test isn't perfect, but ok-ish. I don't get that ultra-thin ultra-even look people show in youtube videos. The 3 other images show the 1st test (2nd recipe), not the pita.

Regarding water... yes and no. The dough was calculated to have about 65% hydration, but I added roughly 100g too much wheat sourdough, which is kinda wet. I am able to handle dough up to 80% hydration, maybe a tad more. So yes, the dough was wet, but that wasn't the problem. It was super sticky and didn't develop a good elastic gluten structure, no "rubber" feeling at all.

Sorry, I am in a hurry, cu around!
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 04 May, 2020, 07:34:19 am
Btw... do you want your signature that way? Or did you just make a typo?
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 04 May, 2020, 08:50:35 am
Btw... do you want your signature that way? Or did you just make a typo?
?
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 04 May, 2020, 08:41:46 pm
Hint: Line No. 7.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 04 May, 2020, 09:45:13 pm
Still dont see it.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 04 May, 2020, 09:46:29 pm
OK see it now, and I have spelt it that way other places by mistake, so I have to use both. :)
But here it is wrong, so will fix.

Been like that for.. forever :D

Thanks.
;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 04 May, 2020, 10:17:34 pm
Uhoh... your secret identity... has been revealed! Muhahahaaahahahaaaaaaa...  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 05 May, 2020, 09:35:32 pm
"Bread day" in Germany. This year on 5th of May. So this is my contribution:

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 05 May, 2020, 11:53:47 pm
Looks good. I hope it tasted as good as it looked.
;)

Forgot to ask, do you use a proper dough knife (razor blade) to slice the top of the bread?
I have some, but I keep forgetting, the odd time used a sharp knife, but that just tears and deflates.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 06 May, 2020, 07:19:50 pm
For the everyday scoring I use a sharp serrated blade. Tried many different knifes, but didn't work well for me. My problem: I want a thin "crusty" crust - think of baguette etc. So I try to keep the dough moist which makes it harder to score.

Another good way is using sharp scissors. Do cuts you would use on rolls, but form a line with it. Gives some kind of funny scoring, but works well.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 10 May, 2020, 10:52:54 pm
Next experiment done.
So this is my strong flour starter.
Took 100g of it, added 100g of whole wheat and water.

I let this grow and created a loaf just using strong flour.

I am really pleased with this one, the structure is good and has a good taste.
Plus it still looks like a white loaf.
(http://www.haitch.com/20200510_200710.jpg)
The bit on the right is not that dark, just how the photo was taken.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 11 May, 2020, 07:46:29 am
Yeah, this looks really good! Crust is too thick for my taste, but that's just my personal preference. Crumb looks great - how strong is the sourdough taste?

To me it looks like heat from above was stronger than from below - is this just the photo?

Well done - take this as a starting point for your next breads!

 8) :D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 11 May, 2020, 08:47:55 am
As usual I forgot to lower the rack in the oven, so it is slightly too high.
But I am not bothered about the crust, it is the colour of the bread I am really trying to keep as white as possible.
I am not adding water to the oven and the flour on the crust is from the proving basket.
I also should use my pizza stone, to get a good crisp bottom of the loaf, but I don't want to change anything yet, it is all about the inner bread for now.

Next weekend is to just use strong flour again, go back to the start and see if that does collapse again.
I don't want to add any other type of flour, that is the challenge. But interesting to see how they react.

As for the taste,  I didn't find it very strong. But what I have noticed is when you add whole wheat you get a stronger sourdough taste than pure white flour. Well I will confirm this next weekend.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 18 May, 2020, 01:06:34 pm
New weekend, new bake.

So this will probably be the last for me for a few weeks. Well sourdough. :)

So this one is full strong white flour (starter and flour) and I am very happy with it.
(http://www.haitch.com/20200518_115440.jpg)

The main difference and the very first one (the one that collapsed) is less water in the mix.
Made it hold together better for me and retained shape.

Todays loaf was not good.
(http://www.haitch.com/sourdough.jpg)

;D

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 22 May, 2020, 07:28:39 pm
Oh well... sourdough can be tough. Keep practicing, thats the only way. I am trying to make Pan de Cristal. 106% hydration. Quite the challenge.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 24 May, 2020, 11:55:40 pm
Sounds hard to do.

But for me, I am very happy with all white sourdough, so moving on.

Next for me is Brioche and Croissants for the butter fun.

I do need to fix the soft crush loaf and buns, as dad with his teeth finds hard crusts difficult
Probably going to order a new loaf tin, with a lid. This should help keep the crust soft.
But as for burger buns (mcdonalds style) no idea yet.

So that is the next target in a few weeks.
;D

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 25 May, 2020, 08:21:29 am
2 tries at pan de cristal failed.  >:(

As for the soft crust - here are a few hints and ideas.

- higher hydration for the dough (I know it's hard)
- lower fermentation/rise time
- keep dough moist / don't let it dry

Basically you don't want the dough to develop any "skin" at all. Buy yeast and try to make rolls. Use a lot of yeast, so dough will rise fast. Around 65% hydration is enough for that experiment. Keep the dough moist all the time. Use plastic bags to prevent air to get on the dough.

When baking, use steam a lot until the rolls won't rise anymore. Then open oven to release steam. 10s is NOT enough. Better go for 1 min or so. After baking let rolls cool until they are around 40C, then put in plastic bag or cover etc. The remaining water in the crumb will soften the crust.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 25 May, 2020, 09:26:52 am
I will buy a bread tin with a lid, this seems to also help create a soft crust.
I am going to try and get one with a more square shape.
Bread baked in that should have a soft crust and more like a standard white loaf.

But going to wait a few weeks still. :)
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 26 May, 2020, 07:21:43 am
Baked this yesterday evening, I am very pleased with it. If I can do this not just by accident, I'll claim a level-up in breadmaking ;) Time will tell, if that was just a lucky accident.

P.S. Good morning!

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 01 June, 2020, 05:20:06 pm
Looking good Jor. ;D
So was it lucky or have you been able to repeat them?

I have moved on to my next thing..
Making bread like the stuff you buy, so you have soft crust and fit it in the toaster.

With this in mind, I have ordered one of these...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M5F45M0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M5F45M0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I read this helps when baking, want to see how this is on its own, then try proving in a plastic bag.
In 3 to 4 weeks when it arrives, will try it out.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 03 June, 2020, 08:20:24 am
Hi there,
good luck with this project! You can bake amazing bread in these. I saw results in a bakers forum that looked really nice. These people didn't try to replicate the ultra soft bread / toast they sell in the supermarket, though. If that's your thing - go ahead! I can see the use for BBQ, too ;)

I had no luck in making this bread again. There are too many parameters and you really have to hit the exact spot. So far I was aiming for a way more relaxed and forgiving baking method with 2-4 days of proofing time. Baking with sourdough AND making it a very relaxed experience is a hard mission. I didn't gave up yet.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 03 June, 2020, 07:09:59 pm
Sorry you can not repeat it, but I think you should still keep the level up! ;)

The soft crust is mainly for my dad, his teeth can not handle the tough crust.
But he does like sourdough.

So I think if I prove and seal with clingfilm or plastic bag, then transfer to this and plastic bag again.
Lid on and bake, I hopefully have a soft crust that works for him.

Plus the advantage of a good sandwich / toast size loaf.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 03 June, 2020, 07:22:59 pm
Did I already recommended the butter4all website to you? Have a look at this:

https://www.butterforall.com/traditional-cooking-traditional-living/butter-top-sourdough-sandwich-bread/

You'll find more interesting stuff there.

As for my bread. I used different flour (812+1600 vs 550) and from a different mill. Its always a problem to adjust a receipt to that. I am working on it.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 08 June, 2020, 08:50:40 pm
Not sure, where to post this.  ???

My usual loaf of sourdough bread, but I used the kettle grill to bake it. First try - I like it! There's room for improvement... I'll work on that.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 08 June, 2020, 10:16:34 pm
Looks very good, especially in the kettle.
Never a failure, all lessons learnt.

Did the kettle hold temp well?

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 09 June, 2020, 05:27:04 pm
yes and no. I had 2 thick fireclay plates in the kettle and these didn't really got to temp. I will replace these with my pizza stone next time. So the air was hot, the stones were not.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 10 June, 2020, 10:29:56 pm
Well my new loaf tin turned up today.
Seems a little smaller than I thought, but will try and give it a go at the weekend if I can.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 13 June, 2020, 11:13:03 pm
OK New loaf tin test done.

Made my usual batch of 1kg style dough with normal yeast etc.
Proved, then shaped, in to the tin then proved again.

As it was smaller, I had to reduce time, normally I cook about 35 minutes, reduced to 25 minutes.
OK Guess the first problem when it is in the oven.
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_1.jpg)
Yep, how do you see what the colour is like. +1 bread point to those that got it ;)
So lid off and looks good (they are poppy seeds on the top)
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_2.jpg)
Came out of the tin very easily
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_3.jpg)
Side view too
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_4.jpg)
And finally a slice (slightly warm still)
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_5.jpg)

Really happy with the results, the crust is very slight and easy to bite through.
Looks like a normal white loaf too, ready for the toaster.

I would really recommend one of these tins.

And for the left over dough
(http://www.haitch.com/20200613_6.jpg)
Again proved in plastic so a slight crust too, I like it that way on these.

;D

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 16 June, 2020, 08:18:30 am
Looking good for the 1st try! As for the problem, that you can't see the dough with closed lid - same with the dutch oven method. Only chance: build some working recipes over time and stick to it. In Germany most people go for cast iron forms, btw. A FOTM thingie, I guess. I would go for a darker crust color as this gives more flavour. Crumb looks nice! Wouldn't a normal cake form give similar results? With initial steaming, I mean?

For some reason I get the darn "you can't upload jpeg, only jpg allowed" forum error, so I can't post photos from yesterday.  >:( Silly iPad.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 16 June, 2020, 03:28:03 pm
It seems to be two things that effect the crust
First one we know is steam or water etc.
The second is how you prove. I normally just have a cloth over and a proving basket.
This gives a harder skin on the dough that we know gives a better crust.

So this was try 1.
1, using clingfilm on all the dough stages, noticeable that the skin seems softer.
2, The cover on the tin, both seems to stop drying out of the lid and keep its form.
3, No water in the oven.

Both the loaf and roll had a crust like normal sliced white, little bit of a bite but nothing much.
Dad seemed to cope much better with it too.

This it to be repeated to make sure it was not a one off.
But having this nice soft crust on both the roll and bread was good.
Having a slice that is uniform is good too for the toaster.

;D

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 19 June, 2020, 09:54:17 pm
Bread from the kettle. Made with rye- and wheat-sourdough. I used wheat, spelt and emmer, 70% hydration.

I am quite happy with the outcome.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 20 June, 2020, 11:40:24 pm
Nice, shows that the grill holds temperature well.

Have you tried flat breads cooked on the grill?

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 21 June, 2020, 09:48:22 am
Have you tried flat breads cooked on the grill?

;D

Are we talking about accidents or pizza? Or wait - pita would be good for a BBQ, too. To answer your question: I did the accidents and the pizza so far. ;D

Pizza is getting better. I went with a tad higher hydration and proofed at room temperature the whole time. Whole grain flour helped to prevent sticking. Made 4 pizzas yesterday and had one with a problem. Dough was very thin in the middle and I applied too much sauce there. So it's all my fault.

The kettle is huge and needs a lot charcoal for pizza. Also the pizza stone drains quite some energy. Still changing setup and learning new stuff every time I cook or bake. But it's fun and there is food in the end - so I am happy.
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 21 June, 2020, 01:36:31 pm
Goin' all out

Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 21 June, 2020, 01:40:54 pm
Baking time! 30mins... 5mins less than usual. A colleague complained about the dark crust. Will see, how people like this version.

I more or less followed this article --> https://tartinebakery.com/stories/country-bread
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Mambopoa on 22 June, 2020, 12:19:49 am
Have to say, it looks a good colour.
I assume it tasted good too, looks like it should.

I have done chapati style breads, worked well at a party.
Saved buying some rubber flat breads from the shop.

Pitta etc only done in pizza oven, not tried in the grill.

;D
Title: Re: Jor's bread thread
Post by: Joric on 24 June, 2020, 07:09:11 am
Good morning!
Taste was ok. You know- there is always room for improvement ;)

I want better oven spring and a more uniform looking, small-to-medium open crumb. I'll do some experiments with different proofing times and I also used 2 different sourdough starters. I made one with spelt flour and it looks and behaves differently compared to the wheat starter.

I also made 2 new starters - one with rye and one with rice flour. My rye starter looked strange and even though I couldn't confirm mold infection I discarded everything. That was a very sad moment :(

The rye starter is for gluten free bread - I want to bake something for my wife.

Have a nice day!