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Author Topic: Jor's bread thread  (Read 1846 times)

Joric

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Jor's bread thread
« on: 21 March, 2020, 08:21:28 pm »

I like bread and try to get better at making decent loafes. This is from today.
« Last Edit: 22 March, 2020, 01:40:36 pm by Joric »
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Fizzlefry

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Re: Bread
« Reply #1 on: 21 March, 2020, 10:17:34 pm »

recipe? Looks really good Joric. Do you use a dutch oven?
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Mambopoa

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Re: Bread
« Reply #2 on: 22 March, 2020, 09:05:59 am »

Looking good Jor :D

Good texture and colour.
Perhaps a little over the top with the seeds. ;)
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Re: Bread
« Reply #3 on: 22 March, 2020, 11:23:44 am »

recipe? Looks really good Joric. Do you use a dutch oven?

Hey mate,
no dutch oven was used. I try to simplify as much as possible and try to get away from the heat as I am clumsy and don't want to burn myself. Instead I used a pizzastone and shovel.

Recipe, ummm... I have to translate that. Trying deepl with some manual adjustments. If you got questions- let me know!

INGREDIENTS for 2 loaves of bread
- 600g water, room temperature
- 25g salt
- approx. 0,5g dry yeast
- 100g rye sourdough 100% hydration
- 100g spelt wholegrain
- 100g wheat wholegrain
- 800g wheat type 550 (thats between pastry (450) and bread flour (812))
- Seeds > Go crazy;)

Making the dough
- Mix water, salt, yeast and sourdough (is a personal thing, I don't like the rye lumps)
- add both wholegrain flours, mix well
- Add wheat flour, mix well
- approx. 10min by hand kneading. I tried it with Slap&Fold, but the dough is a bit firm. So no matter how - knead well.
- Let it rest for 1h at room temperature, 1x stretch and fold, then put it in the fridge

Proofing
- 2-4 days in the fridge - the bread on the photo was Proofing 57 hours
- Stretch and fold properly 2-3 times a day. 2x is enough, e.g. in the morning and in the evening

BACKING - 2 small loaves of bread each approx. 830g
- Knead the dough properly and remove Gas, but do not overdo it
- Divide the dough for 2 loaves of bread with a different mixture of seeds
- shape round, cover, let relax for 10-15min
- Shape the dough according to the fermenting basket And Build Tension
- roll in the desired seeds, then place in the fermentation basket. The side with the fewest grains upwards
- Cover the fermenting basket ("shower cap") and leave to rise for approx. 4 hours.
- Preheat the oven to 275C, lower shelf with bread baking / pizza stone, place water container in the oven for More humidity
- Put the bread onto the floured pizza shovel, cut it and put it in the oven
- Turn oven immediately to 225C bottom heat, bake for 15 minutes
- Let off steam, remove water container, turn bread once
- bake for 15 minutes at 230C top and bottom heat
- watch crust color- don't let it get burned
- remember: Bread core temperature has to exceed 93C - in you got a thermometer- check it!
« Last Edit: 22 March, 2020, 11:31:23 am by Joric »
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Re: Bread
« Reply #4 on: 22 March, 2020, 11:27:41 am »

Looking good Jor :D

Good texture and colour.
Perhaps a little over the top with the seeds. ;)

Hehe, my daughter requested bread "with taste" and with seeds. So I am experimenting...
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Mambopoa

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Re: Bread
« Reply #5 on: 22 March, 2020, 01:10:56 pm »

INGREDIENTS for 2 loaves of bread
- 600g water, room temperature
- 25g salt
- approx. 0,5g dry yeast
- 100g rye sourdough 100% hydration
- 100g spelt wholegrain
- 100g wheat wholegrain
- 800g wheat type 550 (thats between pastry (450) and bread flour (812))
- Seeds > Go crazy;)

I was going to say that was a lot of flour (read the rest first) But my go to on 1 loaf white bread is: (Stolen and changed)
500g Strong Flour
10g Salt
7g Yeast
300 Water (may need to add a little more, depends on flour and feel)
50ml Olive Oil (adds a nice back flavour)

Proofing
- 2-4 days in the fridge - the bread on the photo was Proofing 57 hours
I usual go for the 2 hour proves (depending), usually tripled at room temp. Then double again after knock back.
I won my competition by proving over 24 hours, to give a good bread flavour.

- remember: Bread core temperature has to exceed 93C - in you got a thermometer- check it!
I just go on timing, colour and the knocking sound. I have never done the temp thing with bread.
But I should try it next time. See what temp it is in the middle.

I have started to play around with sour dough and a starter, but not having much luck in a good loaf.
Either too dense or too big bubbles.

This should be Jors Bread Thread ;)



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Re: Bread
« Reply #6 on: 22 March, 2020, 01:36:22 pm »

Hey, your receipe is basically Pizza just with different flour. Its the most basic bread receipe you can think of with only 4 ingredients:
- 500g "Tipo 00" Pizza flour (there are 2 different kinds, e.g. from Caputo - one for short, the other for long fermentation)
- 300g Water, cold. This gives 300/500=60% hydration, which is considered the "everybody can do this" sweet spot. No offense meant. Pizza is a very basic and simple dish everybody could make and afford.
- 15g Salt
- 2,5g yeast
Proofing would be overnight in that case. This is, what they do in a good Pizzeria in Napoli. No olive oil in the dough! Pizza is baked at around 400C for 60-90s.

So as you are experienced with this kind of dough and hydration - get some Tipo00 flour and try to make some proper Pizza!  :)

Oh, and I changed the thread title- just for the fun of it.
« Last Edit: 22 March, 2020, 01:42:11 pm by Joric »
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Re: Bread
« Reply #7 on: 22 March, 2020, 01:40:06 pm »

As for the crumb quality: try a much longer last proofing period. This is, what I am doing atm and its amazing how far you can push this.

>
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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #8 on: 22 March, 2020, 04:13:05 pm »

Regarding Pizza Napoletana: the official regulations are here: https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana

As for the Salt: some say, the rule of thumb is: if the water tastes like sea water, its enough. When you cook pasta, same story. And yes - I saw chefs taste the water before putting spaghetti into it, when I was there.

On the other hand, this is a lot of salt. I can only imagine, that this will work with a lot of yeast and for short proofing periods.
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Mambopoa

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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #9 on: 23 March, 2020, 03:04:35 pm »

Pizza dough, is 800g 00 flour, with 200g semolina flour.
Then 14g of yeast. (our packs of dried yeast are 7g each)
10g Salt
10g Sugar
640ml Water

Gives me about 8 pizza base for the oven. :)

The bread came from a standard white bloomer recipe and it has stood well with me since then.
It fills my 2kg loaf tin and gives a good size of bloomer if needed.

But in the pizza oven, you can also do pitta breads, that works really well. :)
The one I struggled with last was naan breads, just can not seem to get them right.
Oh and don't forget flat breads, great to cook on the BBQ grill :D

I know the salt for the pasta, but I think that would be too much in bread.

But I go off track.
The trick with the sour dough seems to be when you last feed it and when you are about to use it.
I need to try more, but even though it looks wrong, it does have a good taste :)

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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #10 on: 23 March, 2020, 08:43:25 pm »

You can use the sourdough whenever it passes the swim test, which is a bit before, exactly at or a bit after max rise. At that time mix your dough and knead or Stretch&Fold etc.  :)
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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #11 on: 28 March, 2020, 06:26:35 pm »

My first try at pumpkin seed bread. Turned out a tad flat, but the crumb is very nice.
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Mambopoa

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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #12 on: 11 April, 2020, 06:11:49 pm »

Jor,

In this new lock down world, I have a few people at work asking me about sourdough and starters.
(Subject to being able to get strong flour) ;)

So I am asking a few for what is good to do and what is bad.

For me:
Starters. First one I did, I added grapes to help get that natural yeast going.
It did not smell right and pretty odd look, did not like the idea at all and started again with just flour and water.

Friend added some bakers yeast to get it started. But says his looks a little grey.


Making the dough.

I keep mine in the fridge, so took half out, warm room, added 150g flour and 150ml water.
Left to warm up a bit and it started to bubble. Then add this to the loaf mix.
So far the dough was very slack. Some big bubbles, but going to be a low loaf.
Threw it in the oven and will see.

Friend said he started to cook in normal loaf tin. Gets good tasking bread and easy to put in the toaster.
So I will try that another time.


That is the main ones I can think of. I will try and add to this post when I think of more.

Thanks ;D
« Last Edit: 12 April, 2020, 02:17:55 pm by Mambopoa »
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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #13 on: 12 April, 2020, 05:25:13 pm »

Hey mate,
this website has some nice articles on bread.

Making a bread

https://www.butterforall.com/traditional-cooking-traditional-living/how-to-bake-the-perfect-sourdough-boule-in-your-dutch-oven/

Starter

https://www.butterforall.com/traditional-cooking-traditional-living/demystifying-sourdough-everything-youve-ever-wanted-to-know-about-sourdough-starter/

My personal experience:
Many people make big fuss about yeast and sourdough and try to sell you "the method". You can follow their advices, but this will lead to a very stressful life, keeping exact times and temperatures. Our ancestors made bread without all the tools and gadgets. My advise: rely on on a scale, a thermometer and your nose.

- you need less starter than you think
- start with wholegrain flour, rye works best for me, but you can go with wheat, too
- work in a schedule. Doing stuff in the evening works best for me.
- always work very clean. You don't want anything else but your sourdough starter in the glass. This is important.
- always use boiled water at room temperature. Just boil water in the morning and let it sit in the kettle until evening. This gets you rid of every "additional" stuff in the water.
- starter: 30g flour + 30g water + some booster is all you need
- booster: squeeze some grapes, maybe 5-10 depending on size. you know the dark ones, that look a bit floured? These are good. Don't wash. Just pour the juice into the mixture. Worked well on wheat starter. Apple for rye. Shred it very fine, especially stuff from the skin. 5-10g is enough.
- No feeding in the first 2 days. Stir 2-4x a day, work very clean!
- yeast grows best around 27C. Try to keep the temp AROUND that value. Don't go over 30, down to 20 in the night is fine.
- Starting from day 3 you start 1:1:1 feeding - e.g. 20g starter (discard rest) + 20g flour + 20g water. Mix and let it rest until next day. Stir once a day - e.g in the morning. Work clean.
- You want activity. The starter will start to rise and double or even triple in size. Wait at least until day 5 and stay with the schedule.
- Up from day 6 and if your starter at least doubles: If you want, you can now start to power-level your starter. Let it rise to the max and start a new feeding sequence. Keep starter around 27C. And again. And again.... This is called the "yeast-schedule" and strengthens the yeast cultures.
- After like 10 days you should have a stable starter ready for baking.
- You can now feed it and let rise a bit - but not to max. Then put in fridge.
- The smell. To me this is very important. Acetate - good. Your starter is hungry and temp was low-ish. Sweet/flower/parfume/cidre/mild alcohol - wonderful. Starter is well fed and temp was a tad below yeast optimum. This is, what I aim for. Flour/almost nothing - yeast optimum, maybe a tad too warm. Yoghurt/"milk-sour" (sorry, don't know, how to describe it) - watch out. Your starter is bored and temp is too high.
- So what do you do? Starter hungry --> feed it. Bored: challenge your starter. Feed  1:5:5 or 1:10:10 - e.g. 5g starter + 25g flour + 25g water.
- after feeding, smell again. It should smell sweet/flowery or you just smell the flour.
- as long as your starter doesn't change color to red, green or anything strange and no mold appears, you are ok.

Personally I wouldn't use bakers yeast to make a starter. You'll end up with a classic pre-dough, poolish, biga. Thats not bad at all, but it's not sourdough ;)

Baking with sourdough is different from baking with yeast. Sourdough is sour. pH-value around 4.5 while a pure yeast environment is around 6. This changes the biochemical processes and you should read and watch videos on sourdough bread. We can also chat about it if you want ;)

I prefer using yeast and sourdough to get the best of both worlds. I also made my own yeast-water because you cant buy yeast in Germany at the moment. It works better than bakers yeast for me as it harmonises better with the sourdough.

That's it for a start, hope it helps. Gimme a yell if you wanna talk.
« Last Edit: 12 April, 2020, 05:37:07 pm by Joric »
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Re: Jor's bread thread
« Reply #14 on: 12 April, 2020, 05:42:08 pm »

Bread from this friday. And my next sourdough experiment. 6 days old starter.
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