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[Mambopoa]

Thank Jor,

I am going to cut this down to the interesting points
You used Rye flour, I have read this too, or whole wheat. Seems you got a good starter from it.
Never heard the boiled water cooled, i just go straight from the tap. And leave it to warm up to room temp.
I tend to use 100g/ml of water to feed. Interesting you only use 30g/ml
My starter worked fine in a room at about 15c all the time when I started it. Interesting you say 27c for better results.

I did not know about the different PH value. An interesting point to remember.

Thanks again.

[Mambopoa]

Todays loaf was not good.



But this is part of the practice and getting used to things.
Next time less water for a tougher dough and a bit more proving time.

But it was the best tasting sourdough I have done.

[Joric]

Well, *hrmpf*, the yeast and bacterias are in the flour, especially in the outer areas of the grain. Thats why you usually want to use whole grain flour. There's an article on sourdough on the wikipedia website, that explains things in more detail. Read it.

You can use pastry flour to create a starter, if you want to. LM (Lievito Madre) is made from this kind of flour, and it's very popular in Italy. It gained more popularity in other countries over the last years.

Certain kinds of yeast and bacterias grow better at certain temperatures and you use that to "buff" the ones you want to get (group C Obligately heterofermentative bacterias). Sourdough growth and development works from around 5°C to about 35°C. But you favour different bacterias which also impacts the yeast development.

As I said in my previous post - our ancestors used experiments and experience rather than knowledge to bake bread. I am sure, that you are not the first one to create a starter at 15°C. ;p It'll work.

A starter and the actual sourdough you bake with CAN be two different things. If you bake every day, you make enough sourdough for your dough plus a bit extra. You use that leftover to start the next sourdough for the next day, as you want to keep the sourdough active and at its peak. So if you bake lets say once a week - you put a very small amount of sourdough in the fridge, BEFORE it reaches peak. A few grams are enough. The day before mixing the dough you use something from this starter with flour and water and let it rise to near max. We are talking about 6-18 hours on average. Then with the sourdough near peak you mix the dough. Search for "float test". If it floats it is ready to mix. So you can do it both ways, but I only need the starter once or twice a week and with around 70g in the jar I can start a lot of sourdough if I use 5-10g starter

Good luck and keep us updated!

[Joric]

Oh and I really suggest you make your own yeast water. It goes very well with sourdough. Well, at least for me.

[Joric]

Today I refreshed my yeast water, 2 rye starters and a wheat starter.

[Mambopoa]

The yeast water does sound interesting. I will go back to that at some point.

Those sort of tips really help.
I have a couple of others doing this sort of tips, will post any extra they post.

The sourdough is a challenge for me, rather than a need.
I am very happy with the usual loaf I make.

Just a quick point on the flour, I am using strong flour, this has the higher gluten, not the usual pastry flour.
(Just in case this got missed somewhere)

And yes I am doing the try, test and see method.
I am not reading up anything on it, as I just wanted to see how I got on with it.
Why making lists of what worked and did not work is useful.

Would show you the BBQ ones, but that is a trade secret



PS - Stop posting while I am still writing a post 

[Mambopoa]

For the next time, how did you make your yeast water and when do you use it?

Not really followed with that bit.

Thanks,

[Joric]

Good morning!
The US/GB flour labels are very confusing for me, but afaik pastry and strong flour are two completely different categories. Pastry refers to what part of the grain is used - only the middle/core. Strong is/might be an indicator for gluten, although I think it's more related to the amount of protein. The more of the grains outer parts you mill, the more protein you can expect in the flour, as it's concentrated there. But protein and gluten values depend on many parameters like soil, weather, etc. - so "bread flour" this year might bake differently from "bread flour" next year or bread flour from another country/region.

3rd category: There is the term "dough stability" (german: Teigstabilität, the "W-number"), which is used to describe exactly that and it is related to gluten, but not exclusively. 170W --> cookies, waffles, sauces. 180-260W --> baguette, rolls, pizza. 280-350W --> bread.

I like to experiment, too. But then I also want to know, why stuff happens. The goal: make things easy and less stressful. Example: The same recipe will yield a different bread in winter and in summer if you do exactly the same with the same ingredients. So now you can experiment more and develop summer and winter bread recipes. I would ask: why? Answer: Roughly every 5 degrees bio-chemical processes double speed if it gets warmer or half it when it gets colder. So when my kitchen has 22°C and my fridge 7°C and I prove the same bread in the kitchen for 5 hours... how long do I have to prove in the fridge? 22=7+3*5. So 2^3=8 times. 5*8=40. So it might not be the exact value, but 40 hours get me in the right ballpark. Kitchen at 25°C and fridge at 5°C --> 80 hours. Quite the difference, huh?

Yeast water: you basically try to make wine. 500g purified/clean water (I cook it and cool it down) at 40°C, (dried) fruits, shake, let sit for a few days and shake a little now and then. Don't close the jar/bottle completely as it might explode because of the gas. You can add a little sugar to feed the mixture.

Video:

Good luck!

[Mambopoa]

So what do you find useful or different about using the yeast water?

What differences do you see and do you feel it is worth using?

And morning.

[Joric]

Good question.

Mostly I use very small amounts of yeast, like 0,2-0,5g. This is hard to measure and small differences make a huge difference on the long run. With yeast water I just mix 1:1 with flour and let it rest/rise. So it's easier to measure.

It's a more delicate/dainty yeast compared to the usual I-oneshot-everything yeast beast you buy in the store - if that makes any sense to you.

Smells different, more pleasing. Fruity, alcoholic, slightly rum flavoring.

It changes the color of the dough. In my case slightly pink-ish. Funny to see.

It works well together with my sourdough. They seem to be a good team. This sounds strange and maybe it's not even true. Maybe I am just getting better in mixing and handling dough. What I see atm with the yeast water: the dough feels nice, doesn't fall apart even after longer proofing, crumb looks good. Crust becomes leathery/rubbery after a while - this is the next thing I am working on.

It is self-made and it is very satisfactory, as I try to reduce my bread-making to the absolutely necessary things and to get things done without having to buy some magic ingredients. So this is just water and some fruits and you can bake with it. Mind-blowing.

You can use yeast water to make a LM starter in just a few days. This alone is the reason for many people to make yeast water. The traditional LM starter needs around 25 days and a lot of special care.

For now I'll go with it. I can't buy yeast in stores anyway, so it is my only source of yeast.

[Joric]

Same dough. 5 days of proofing, mostly in the fridge. Ultra strong flavour. My tongue can't even talk in sentences, it's more like: "Bread. Mhhhmm - bread. BREAD!! Brrrrreeeaaaadd! Wow, Bread!".

[Mambopoa]

Would you say best yet?

I have made other breads using whole grain flour, even though it was a good brown loaf, I still prefer the white.

Have you tried the dutch oven type cook?
I can see this helping with stopping the mixture spread too much. Also more heat on the bottom of the loaf.
I will have to dig out the cast iron stuff and have a go next time.

Well for me, most of this is on stall, as I can not get the flour anyway. I do have yeast left.
I need to get back to making baguettes again.
But with the lack of flour in the shops, it will also have to wait.

With the lockdown, all I can assume that families are baking a lot with the kids to keep them busy.
Will this cause a demise of the bread industry and people go back to home baked a lot again.

[Joric]

Best? No. It's over-proofed and the crumb begins to fall apart. I will keep this recipe and proof 2-3 days.

Yes, I tried dutch oven (DO). My problem: I am very sensitive to heat and a 250°C DO is no fun for me. Using the deep, lower part of a roasting pan as a lid/cover and baking on a baking plate is better in that aspect, but the best method so far for me is using a pizza stone and a pizza shovel. Put bread on shovel, score the bread, open oven, slide bread onto the stone, close oven. Takes like 3 seconds --> winner.

Also a pizza stone drains moist from the bread bottom --> better crust.

If your dough handling is right, a normal bread needs no further support. No offense meant, really. With the gluten structure and the tension you build by forming the loaf and then proofing in a basket it keeps in shape, trust me.

The higher the hydration, the lower the gluten, the more rye --> the higher the need for "dough support", though. I managed to bake bread up to 80% hydration, but atm I settled for 65%, maybe a tad more. It's way more relaxed and produces stable results.

Yes, flour is on high demand here, too. I buy, what I can get - but then I only use like 1-1,5kg a week, so that's not that much.

/wave

[Mambopoa]

Finally had an update from a friend at work and his sourdough notes.

First couple of attempts were pretty dodge, I made the starter in the cheats way (as advised by the internet) so added ¼ tsp of bread yeast to 100g of flour and 150ml water fed a couple of times and was ready to go within 3 or 4 days.

First loaf was way too slack, I think I used too much water so although the taste was good it was very flat.
That is the only Boule that I have made as since then I have made loaves in tins, 2nd loaf again was quite slack dough wise but in the tin it held shape and had great structure.
The last couple I have made have had much less water and been much better but less bubbly structure.

So current recipe:
150ml starter add 50g Strong Wholemeal flour and 150 ml water (to make a total of approx. 350ml of batter
450g flour (I use 250g Strong wholemeal and 200g Spelt)
Bit of salt   
Extra 50ml water if required

Sift flour, add salt, mix in starter batter to make dough, add extra water, turn out onto lightly floured board and knead a little to get everything mixed in roll into a ball, back into the bowl under clingfilm and leave for 6 hours or so until double in size ish.
Knock back, have a little knead, grease loaf tin add coarse maize flour to base pop dough in leave for a couple of hours till dough is ½ inch to an inch above pan sides (or until it looks loafy).
Heat oven to 200c add roasting tin full of boiling water to bottom of oven, once heated add loaf just above pan of water, give it about 45mins till brown.
 
I have used all sorts in the starter, rye, spelt and bread flour, I feed 2 table spoons flour and 100ml water each day (I’m not sure it’s quite enough flour) although today I have done 3 tblsp and 100 ml and popped it in the fridge as I am making a loaf today and don’t expect to make sourdough till next week now.
I shall make a normal loaf at the weekend. My normal loaves are awesome

******
So that is Rob's stuff, I think I need to ask him for photos to prove the are awesome

[Joric]

Thanks for the update! Well, starting with yeast and adding flour and water gets you pre-ferment aka mother dough, depending on how much water you use poolish (around 100% hydration) or biga (around 50% hydration). You can even build lievito di madre from yeast water that way.

THIS IS NOT A SOURDOUGH, THOUGH. Sorry to repeat myself on that. It's nothing wrong with doing it that way and you can get nice results. I like working with pre-ferment and do it all the time - its great. But it's not sourdough.

Your friend ended up with a hydration of 43% or 52% (with added water). That's pretty dry. Remember --> "pizza / everyone can do it" hydration is 60%. Maybe it's the flour he used and it ended up perfectly. If I would do it that way, it would be a very dry dough.

As for starting sourdough. First feedings are 1:1 and 1:1:1. I don't know, where he got his information, but 2 table spoons flour + 100g water just doesn't sound right. Just saying. Save flour... start with like 30g flour + 30g water/booster and feed 1:1:1 up from day 2 and 1:5:5 later.

My experiments with sourdough-only breads ended up so-so. Nothing to be proud of. Its way more complicated than baking with yeast or yeast water.

/wave